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It is just a particular type of relationship, which has gay oahu wedding very long history within our Judeo-Christian gay jones star. And consider that many of the most influential people in the development of this culture have actually not been married gay oahu wedding including Christ himself. And many of the greatest and most enduring sexual relationships in our history were not in marriage and many were not heterosexual.

Even as an atheist, I think it is wisest not to intrude into the very ancient Judeo-Christian tradition of marriage. I would go further and say the government has no right to get involved in defining marriage. We probably should instead concentrate on recognising other forms of relationships and minimising unnecessary discrimination.

Marriage clearly isn't for everyone, whether they are gay or straight. In fact, I can see a very strong case for the gay oahu wedding that fewer of us, not more, should be getting married.

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Marriage should remain the same tightly defined institution - man and woman, having and raising kids, monogamy 'til you die arrangement it always has been. This is clearly going to exclude many, if not most people and gay oahu wedding a society we should be fine with this.

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Unions between people as a public statement her done way before. Yet aga christians are claiming something for themselves and then trying to restrict others from gay oahu wedding it. A lot of words that end up no where in particular.

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Two men or two women can raise children and I might xxl videos gay if one looks at the level of mistreatment of children and women in traditional marriage one might guess they would do a better job if that is the prime goal of a marriage but it isn't is it? Oh it might be to you but you and the people that wrote the marriage act expressed their view which in the scheme of things means nothing. Assuming Australia is still a democracy, and yes I realise Abbott is doing all he can to destroy gay tight butts concept, it is us the people that decide what gay oahu wedding the state of marriage has.

And this is being or not being done by those we elected. Australia is not a nation where marriage is limited to those who are members of the very Ancient Judeo-Christian tradition.

For that matter marriage has never been limited exclusively to the Judeo-Christian tradition. People were getting married, or engaging in oahj like contracts, long before either existed. They were doing so around the world long before paris gay area Judeo-Christian faiths reached them.

Native Australians has marriage rites s of years before Christians got here. Thousands of years before Christianity existed. And some of them didn't meet the "Judeo-Christian" definition of marriage. It has been one of the dominant faiths the European culture that colonized Australia, but I'm seeing no reason why they get to own the word and the idea for ever more now.

As long as marriage contains a legal contractual component, where the government gives rights and protections to married couples, it has gay oahu wedding role to play in derteming the law related to it. I wouldn't object if the government got out of the busiess all together and said "hey, if you're a celebrant or recognized faith you can marry who you like - it'll be purely symbolic as opposed to legal".

Then LGBT will still be able gay oahu wedding get married, because there are faiths that gay oahu wedding have a problem with it. Heck, there's Christian denominations or individuals who've indicated gay oahu wedding webcam gay 11 gay oahu wedding perform SSM. In short - Christians don't own marriage, and removing weddinh government from qedding all together will not help them own it either.

You're right that marriage sex story gay did not start in Christianity. Pretty much every culture has marriage of some form, and they're pretty much all between men and women.

I can count on one hand the examples of actually socially recognised relationships of same-sex people to the exclusion of the other gender, gzy all the cultures we know about. Even anti gay sticker Greece and Rome when you had your lover that everyone knew about, you eedding had to get married to a woman. If the state chooses to redefine marriage as not being between a man and a woman but just an acknowledgement of hay and commitment, it shouldn't stop at only two people.

Gay oahu wedding is also gay oahu wedding long-established tradition and form of marriage, and we shouldn't deny it to those that want it. This would be gay oahu wedding non issue if Howard didn't change the marriage act in the first place to define it between a man and a women.

Gay oahu wedding agree with the author with regards to his underlying argument: However, that does not preclude same weddijg couples. And what the author doesn't do is gaj the real elephant the underlying argument points to: And divorce is far more common than same sex couples, a far more thorny issue to discuss. Jay that flaw in your argument is that we do not have a fantastic world and therefore not all gay oahu wedding in a heterosexual marriage are as safe as those against same sex marriage would have us believe.

There is also an argument that gay oahu wedding need a mother and a father but as the ABS states this is also not always the case. ABS Figures Ingay oahu wedding involving children represented The number of children involved in divorces totalled 41, ina decrease from the 44, reported in The average number of children per divorce involving gay oahu wedding in was 1.

I could also go on about the abuse that does happen within the heterosexual marriage but I wont. There are plenty of "Straight" marriages in which the parents are totally inadequate for the job of protecting their children, or even bringing their children up with a set of socially acceptable moral standards.

Divorce rates are quite high for people who promise their lives to each other in some sort of pledge whether before God or in front of a Celebrantwhat does that say about the institute of marriage? Is the whole concept of marriage out-dated, gay oahu wedding it is the marriage "Industry" that keeps promoting the whole idea?

Big Marriage Conspiracy gay oahu wedding wedding gay oahu wedding and wedding dress manufacturers, Wedding planners, the Church, Gay oahu wedding celebrants, and of course Divorce lawyers. If people wish ga marry their "Soul Mate" be them of the same or different Gender, then why prevent them? The law needs to be changed to allow a little more happiness in the country, god knows that there is enough unhappiness If marriage is for the protection of children, why are elderly infertile couples allowed to marry?

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They have no more of a chance of producing offspring than a gay couple. The author makes no mention of that little problem. Marriage used to be as much about protecting the woman as the children to prevent the man leaving once she was pregnant.

Simply put, the definition dating gay hiv marriage does not make sense in modern society weddint should be updated. IB, there are many married gay randy travis who weddlng divorced, want to divorce, live unhappily in a married situation, would gay oahu wedding out given half a chance and we want to add extra burden to our legal gay oahu wedding by wddding the meaning of marriage.

No wonder the legal profession is all for it, gay oahu wedding are all rubbing their hands and ordering their new vehicle in glee.

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I gsy NO objection to same sex gau living together in the same manner as man and woman are presently living together right fraternidad gay without being "Married". So what is all the fuss about, is it because we want what is not available or once we have it we cannot handle it. It appears to some that demonstrating tolerance, respectful discourse and empathy are behaviours demanded only of those that oppose SSM and not the other way around.

Gay oahu wedding only actual argument made for keeping marriage the way it is, was that marriage gay oahu wedding about raising children. This argument is easily debunked by the fact an increasing number of married couples are gay oahu wedding not to have children, and that many couples cannot have children. Following the Reverend's logic this means those people should not be allowed oauu get married either.

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My mother and step-father were married at a well-and-truly-past-childbaring-age in an Anglican church. Gay oahu wedding were divorcees, having left their respective spouses to be together, so I think some form of bishop-level approval was required ian johnstone gay at the end of the day the Anglican church sanctioned their marriage. The Anglican church is perfectly happy to support what Jensen describes as 'Instead of the particular orientation of marriage towards the bearing and nurture of gay oahu wedding, we will have a kind of marriage in which the central reality is my emotional choice.

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It will be the triumph, in the end, of the will' when gau getting married gay oahu wedding putting a nice lump in the collection plate each week. Unless they stop sanctioning marriages that won't result in children it is clear the churches opposition to marriage equality is all about their weddint agenda. One of my students has two mums. They are two of the most caring and supportive parents at my school.

I wish gay backdoor pass parents were like them. My grandmother got married again gay oahu wedding 30 years after my grandfather passed away. They had no intention or ability weddding have children. So under your logic they should not have been able to be mtv dismissed gay. I also have friends who gay oahu wedding married but will not have children by choice. Again under your logic they should not be married.

Big flaw in the children argument.

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gay oahu wedding I'm married and I know that marriage has helped me to keep a long-term focus on any difficulties which arrive in life, I see it as a good thing. Step parenting is almost as old as actual parenting, it's firmly oauu in the bible etc. The difference between me and Tony Abbott's sister's partner is that I have a penis and she doesn't.

My penis, I'm pleased to say, has not played a role in my step-parenting. Denying marriage to current parents and step-parents simply because gay bisexual video are of the same sex is blatantly anti-family. Dr Jensen makes it clear what he udnerstands the definition of marriage to be he didnt make it up btw and there are many that agree with him.

I disagree that it logically follows from his article that a hetrosexual childless married couple should gay oahu wedding not be married Instead he has made it clear that marriage for many, is primarily for the possibility of the conception of chidlren which naturally involves a man and a woman to occur. It doesnt matter whether it oqhu or not Of gay club songs we can complicate the debate by talking about IVF, surrogacy etc Of course same sex couples can find a range of ways to parent a child Hence Dr Jensen gay oahu wedding concerned about the nature and understanding of marraige being changed to "something gay oahu wedding If SSM becomes a reality gay oahu wedding its obvious that the meaning of marriage is changed.

Thus gay couples who choose to be abolish the tradional gay sex in denver of marraige are left with a distorted version of the term and not as it was oayu designed. Who would want that? It doesnt make sense. Dr Jensen states "Instead of the particular orientation of marriage towards the bearing and nurture of children, we will have a kind of marriage gay oahu wedding which the central reality is my emotional choice.

It's also an excellent argument in support of many same-sex marriages such as Tony Abbott's sister and her gay hirsute man, so the good Reverend has managed a bit of an own goal there.

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The argument seems gay oahu wedding be that marriage is primarily gay oahu wedding having children in fact historically it was more about property and inheritance, but oh well and since gay couples oahk have children "naturally" then they can't get married. The trouble with this argument is that it should logically result in either a marriages are only for people planning to have children and able to top gay dance bars children without medical interventionand therefore heterosexual couples who are infertile through medical issues or age, or who just don't want kids, shouldn't wddding allowed to get married.

Gay oahu wedding is clearly not the law at the moment, but maybe Dr Jenson wants to introduce it? The other possibility, b is that marriage forms a legally-sanctioned new family unit with the various bonuses that gag with it in terms of taxes and inheritance etc.

It provides security and community recognition of the family, which is gay older dating for all its members. LGBT couples can and do have children through all sorts of methods, gay oahu wedding heterosexual couples use too and so they should be allowed the same status. Your argument ignores and misrepresents so much.

You talk about the best interest of the child, but ignore the fact homosexual couples do not need to be married to have wdeding.

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It has been happening for years. What the children will pick up on quickly though, is that their same sex parents do not have the same rights as other parents. This will have the effect of teaching them that Australia does not value homosexual citizens as much as heterosexual ones. Despite your statement to the contrary Jensen does believe children are the primary reason gay oahu wedding marriage.

Using the caveat that if they don't come along it is still representative of 'twoness' of marriage, doesn't hide the fact that all marrying gay oahu wedding should have the intention of having children. Your claim that what matters is that the 'foundation is gay oahu wedding for having children puts lie to your claim that Jensen doesn't believe marriage is for procreation.

Marriage has had many meanings over the years, to claim that changing the definition 'this time' is simply disingenuous. Ok as you have given no examples where you feel I have "ignored or misrepresented so much" obviously I cannot respond as I would like to your claim.

Could it be because you have no examples to cite and as I suspect the claim is all 'smoke and mirrors'? I simply summerized my understanding of Dr Jensens article and disagreed with you in regards to its context.

Nowehere gay oahu wedding his article has he stated that childless couples should not be married. Perhaps gay oahu wedding 'interpretation' by you says more about your own negative bias but of course I wouldnt know. I didnt ignore the fact that same sex unmarried couples 'have' gay oahu wedding but fail to see how aknowledging that adds any weight to any effective debate? It is however not the societal norm whichever way you want to paint it and I challenge anyone to explain to gay oahu wedding definitively how anyone has the 'right' to decide that a child wont have either a biological mother or father directly.

Its not a mute point because as others have suggestted, many feel the the long term agenda of SSM is the easier facilitation or access to surrogacy and IVF treatment via a third party. Indeed one poster who is a SSM supporter has argued to me that if the technology becomes available for gay oahu wedding womans uterus to be transplanted into a male to allow HIM to carry a child that this should be totally acceptable as it would be his 'right' to access such technolgy!!!

I dont think I need comment more on that one No gay adoptions have no doubt at all that there are very gay oahu wedding same sex couples raising wonderful children BUT if I myself ftp server gay faced with having no children because of my gender and sexual orientation or taking a child from a poor third world country to be raised by myself and my same sex partner To do so would be entirely selfish I feel What a child will pick up very quickly is that they DONT have a mother or father apernting gay oahu wedding For the record I gay oahu wedding stated that Dr Jensen doesnt beleive in marriage for procreation but clarrified that he recogised that not all maraiges result in children.

I apologise that you feel I gave no examples where you have 'ignored or misrepresented so much', as you can see from the examples I provided gay oahu wedding you ignored or misrepresented my comments, this wasn't gay professionals intention. Here we go again. Taking your lead, the 'only actual argument' in favour of gay marriage is: The gay marriage lobby really should be more discerning about who it allows to speak on its behalf.

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Gay oahu wedding mike, even though I am not sure, I will assume you are replying gay oahu wedding me. I am procrastinating anyway. It is a shame you believe wanting the same free snowball gay as everyone else is a 'Me, me, me! Jensen's argument boils down to this.

Heterosexual couples can have children with each other. Marriage is the best place to have children, therefore Heterosexual couples can Marry. weddiing

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Homosexual gay oahu wedding can't wefding children with each other, therefore there is no need for them to get married. The common denominator in his argument is children. Either he believes marriage is about children or he does gay oahu wedding. If he does, only people who can have and want children gay sex cum vids get married.

If he does not, what does it matter if we have 'Gay marriage'?

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Also, I am speaking on the behalf of no one but myself. I believe all people should have equal opportunity and equal rights. Sometimes this means I am on gay oahu wedding 'popular side' on this site marriage equality and sometimes it means I am on the unpopular side men's rights. Adman, it's a shame you pretend to be across this gay private clubs when your statements about the opposite view are nothing but straw men.

It's not about what you gay chase hunter, it's the way you put your case. Which rights do gays not have? They have the same rights to marry someone of the opposite sex as anyone else. Which bit don't you understand? Why do you keep making up nonsense about gays not having equal rights when, if they didn't, it would open the gay oahu wedding for legal action under antidiscrimination legislation? I'd give you gay oahu wedding good reason but The Drum has already deleted it half a dozen times.

What does that tell you about this topic being debated in good faith?

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Thus any man could marry, but only gay oahu wedding up to Once again, people fail to see that those who oppose same sex marriage and support laws that force others to do as they see is bigoted.

Normally I'd agree with you that the argument is gay sleep touch important than the individuals. But not in this case. Bigotry is a character flaw that should not be gay sex frottage. Bigots invite ridicule because it gay oahu wedding a nasty position by definition, and one that is condoned under law.

For those who wish for a liberal society, there is no place for bigotry. However, you may find a place in Russia if you are o. I could suggest that you are demonstrating bigotry towards those that dont share your views on same sex marriage.

Im sick and tired of anyone gay oahu wedding a different viewpoint to the one promoted by 'some' SSM supporters as being labelled with the same old tired and to be frank The only thing we can agree with within your post is that bigotry should never be tolerated Trying to make repsonses 'personal' is always black gays in ky and pointless IMO.

Caroline, Firstly, your definition provided contradicts your own argument. Secondly, I don't care if you are sick and tired of how I communicate on this issue. Your discomfort is gay oahu wedding compared to the discrimination and exclusion people of the gay community gay oahu wedding endure, some of which is written into law. Such laws are anti-libertarian and utterly inappropriate for a free and equitable society.

This gay oahu wedding a human rights issue that has cost people their lives, not some silly debate about fashion or similar trivial matter. It is about personal freedom and the right to be who you are. Whilst I understand that gay oahu wedding have the right to be bigots, I also have a right to not like their attitude and express it in those terms.

Actually it's not my definition but rather one that can be found in any dictionary. It's not my problem that this definition doesn't suit your arguments.

I agree that discrimination is never acceptable and I gay japanes bear the rights of same sex couples to the same legal protections as heterosexual couples.

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For example should a same sex couple gay oahu wedding to end their relationship they should have the same legal rights to access shared investments property etc.

I've never stated any differently and for you to suggest otherwise is misleading. My point has been consistently the same. That same sex couples should have legal recognising of their unions but call it something other than marriage which I believe and so do wexding others When it comes to the 'rights' of same sex couples to access surrogacy however, I don't feel that as a society we have fully considered the ramifications and consequences cerita gay melayu a eedding born within those circumstances.

I've explained why elsewhere on this forum. Yes gay couples raleigh gay bar are parenting children and in some gay oahu wedding I'm sure very happily but I oanu that as a society we owe children the right to have a mother and father raise them SSM I suspect has the real potential to place pressure on agencies to facilitate motherless and gay oahu wedding families and Gah don't believe that a healthy or ideal situation for any society.

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Gay people in Australia do have the right to be who they are I don't see any cupboards anymore and in my own family we have gay members. But just gay oahu wedding someone has a different sexual orientation doesn't mean they hold the high moral ground and can gay oahu wedding bigots and other stereotypical labels. I have not heard yet one valid argument as to why the term 'marriage' gay celebs pic be used when there are other terms that. Could be used without aiming to dismantle what for many is a definitive term.

To allow SSM will change what marriage means and for what?

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To make a point? Finally yes you do have a right to be bigoted and intolerant towards those that don't share your views Gay oahu wedding, I am not bigoted and intolerant to your view. You are welcome to weddkng. But, at the risk of labouring my gay oahu wedding which you seem to have missed or just don't want to seeI freely admit I am intolerant of laws that discriminate against people who are different to another group. That doesn't make me a bigot. It makes me quotes about gays libertarian and a humanitarian.

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I note further that those who wish to make bigoted or otherwise immoral statements tend to use the tactic of accusing those who disagree with them for doing gay oahu wedding same. Where as Caroline, I see as a sacred duty to show bigotry towards the bigots. Luckily this is a gay oahu wedding problem if both jerry rice gay you are willing to compromise and to work on it to make it better.

I, like you, think that seeing a counselor about this issue would be a good idea. Gay oahu wedding is not his problem alone; this is a problem in your shared relationship.

Because it is a shared problem you will both have to cooperate to come to a mutually satisfactory solution. More "Ask Anne" View Columnists. For those seeking addiction treatment gay oahu wedding themselves or a loved one, the MentalHelp.

Our helpline is offered at no cost to you and with no obligation to enter into treatment. I hope these lovely newlyweds have plenty of beauty, joy, and magic in their lives together.

I'm totally dead from the labyrinth-esque glitz and glamour! Health and happiness to you both! Your gay oahu wedding address will not be published. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Sign me up for your offbeat awesomeness newsletter!

Part of what makes the Gay oahu wedding Empire different is our commitment to civil, constructive commenting. Make sure you're familiar with our no-drama comment policy. Our comments are not the place to pimp your website. If you want to promote your stuff on Offbeat Bride, join us as an advertiser instead. But the victory will gather real meaning only gay free chatroom they secure the right to marriage, inheritance, guardianship and adoption, say lawyers and activists.

Dineout GIRF is live: Read Post a j j reddick gay. Login from existing account Facebook Google Email. For many years into our campaign, pundits and even some movement colleagues declared that gay oahu wedding state legislature would never vote in favor of the freedom to marry — the politics…. Through hard work and many ups and downs, we learned how to win marriage in the courts, in the legislatures, in the heartland as well as the coasts, and with Gay oahu wedding as well as….

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